Connect with us

Dodger Baseball

Is WAR the Best Way to Judge a Players Greatness?

                                 How a player is judged has changed a lot over the years. When I was young, the stats on the back of a baseball card were the stats most pundits and historians used to rate who were the best players ever. How things have changed. BA does not mean a whole lot anymore. You can hit .225, but if your OPS is north of .800, you are a productive hitter. Striking out is not as big a deal as it was for over a century. Guys who strike out 150 plus times can still have an OPS of better than .800. Max Muncy is an excellent example of this. 

                                The highest WAR in the game’s history belongs to Babe Ruth. Numbers 2 and 3 are pitchers, Walter Johnson and Cy Young. Then comes Barry Bonds. The highest BA in MLB history belongs to Ty Cobb. Cobb batted .366 over a 24-year career, with most of that career played in the dead ball era. He was past his prime when Ruth was entering his. It is much easier to rank players by the era they played in simply because of how much the game has changed. 

                               As the game spread from the simple settings of local ballparks to stadiums designed to hold thousands, and players began getting paid for their services, travel, the conditions of the field, the equipment and the way the game was played have changed drastically. At the turn of the century, teams traveled by train, staying in hotels with no air conditioning. All games were played during the day, no night games until the 30’s. The uniforms were heavy wool, and they would make a player sweat profusely in the hot summers in many cities. 

                              Pitchers were expected to finish what they started. Closers, set up men, were unheard of back then. Wins were the standard way of calculating a pitcher’s worth.  Unfortunately for the players of that era, the owners were notoriously tight fisted when it came to salaries. Walter Johnson never made more than 20,000 dollars in any season. Of course, 20 thousand went a lot further in those days than now. According to baseball reference, Cy Young made 4000 dollars at his peak. 

                              The analysts like Bryan Kenny and several others, use many different stats to state their case for the value of players. Now in the Stat Cast era, they can trace almost everything including distance and speed off of the bat. Sometimes, I think they are way off. Ohtani hit a ball into the second deck in Miami that they said traveled just 404 feet. Looked a lot further to me. Some players, like Judge, Ohtani, Witt Jr., you just know are very good. It is the fringe guys and others that are hardest to attach some sort of value to. 

                            Chris Taylor is a prime example. His best season was actually his first full season in LA. His slash line was very good at .288/21/72, with an .850 OPS, OPS+ was 123. He stole 17 bases and was caught just 4 times. The only real detriment was his strike outs, 142 to walks, 55, ratio. 3-1. That is not good. At least by the standards years ago. Now Ks are less important it seems except to the pitchers, and they do not carry the stigma they once did. 

                          In his first 5 full seasons as a Dodger, Taylor was MLB average or better with OPS+. His BA never dipped below .254. He averaged almost 16 homers a year, and 58 RBIs. But his real value to the team was his versatility in the field. And the fact that he was an excellent defender at all of them. In 2017, his first full year, he learned how to play the outfield on the fly. He played center and left, his arm wasn’t considered strong enough for right, second base, SS and third. He made just 2 errors in the outfield. His toughest position to play was second base. He made 5 errors there. But overall, it was a pretty amazing performance for a guy who never played the outfield before. 

                          He was rewarded after his 21 season with a 4-year 60-million-dollar deal. Since then, he has not been close to being the same player. Where he was close to a 2 WAR player each of the first 5 seasons, he has not been better than 1.5 WAR since, and the last 2 he is a combined -.4.  The big difference I see is that injuries he has suffered have really affected his game a lot. Fans have been calling for the Dodgers to unload him ever since the first year of that contract was over. Now he is simply the 26th man on this roster, relegated to mostly late inning defensive replacement for Conforto. He rarely starts.  This year, he has started just 5 games. 

                        Muncy on the other hand, was pretty consistent until he was injured in the final game of the 2021 season. Whereas prior to that injury he was a solid .250 hitter in a full season, he has not topped .232 since. The year after the injury, his OPS dipped to .713. He brought it back up over .800 for the next two seasons, but this year he has been unable to generate any kind of consistency with the bat. Max is well past the injury, so one would think he would be showing his old power, so far, not the case. 

                       Myself, I use the eye test. If you watch the game long enough, especially the players on your favorite teams, you can tell how valuable they are from day to day. I always felt Kike and Taylor were valuable more on defense than offense. Kike as a knack for post-season production, Taylor did that in 21 when he had a .476 average against the Braves with 3 homers in one game and 9 driven in overall. He also hit the walk-off game winning homer in the wild card game. Kike also owns 3 homers in a NLCS game, in his case, it came in the clincher in 2016. 

                      Some players, you just get the sense they are going to be good. I remember the first time I saw Piazza bat at Dodger Stadium against Nolan Ryan; he hit an opposite field double off of the wall. You hit a pitch oppo with that much power, you are on my radar. Felt the same the first time I saw Scioscia block the plate. Corey Seager impressed me a bunch when he was called up at the end of 2015. 

                       Let’s face it, there is really no way to predict who is going to excel and who is not. Ove the years I have seen guys who were supposed to be can’t miss prospects fall by the wayside. There are so many tools out there on the internet now to rate a players performance, WAR is just one. 

 

Michael Norris

Born June 14th, 1948, in Los Angeles California. AKA The Bear

Born June 14th, 1948, in Los Angeles California. AKA The Bear

41 Comments
Subscribe
Notify of
guest
41 Comments
Most Voted
Newest Oldest
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Norris

Sirota called up to Great Lakes to join De Paula, Hope & George.

Jeff Dominique
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Johnny Gentle

Sirota 3-3, a double and 2 singles, with a BB. I know it is only 1 game, but it sure looks like he might have belonged in GL a bit earlier than May 13. A lot of good performances today, including 7.0 IP, 1 run, 3 hits (including HR), 7 K, with NO walks.

Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  Jeff Dominique

That was Copen btw.

Yean struggled with his control in the 8th but we pulled it out.

Jeff Dominique
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Johnny Gentle

Yes it was Copen. My senility is showing.

dodgerram
dodgerram
1 month ago
Reply to  Jeff Dominique

Great start for Sirota at GL. And dePaula another multihit game going 2-4 with 2 sb.
Should move him and Hope to AA, Ramos to AAA.Have to challenge those youngsters.

Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!

Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  dodgerram

I definitely want to see Hope in AA

Jeff Dominique
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Johnny Gentle

Instead, the Dodgers promoted Kole Myers to AA. Another head scratcher.

Bobby
Bobby
1 month ago
Reply to  Johnny Gentle

will they all rotate at DH, or will DePaula and/or Hope get moved up to Tulsa?

Bobby
Bobby
1 month ago
Reply to  Bobby

Ha! And to answer my own question: GL has an early game this morning, and Sirota is in LF, DePaula in RF, George in CF, and Hope is DH today.

Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  Bobby

That’s some serious OF talent. Sirota has now played all three OF positions this season, as he and Quintero were trading off CF/RF recently.

Badger
Badger
1 month ago

“Is WAR the best way to judge a player’s greatness.”

I think currently it’s used by all organizations to judge a player’s value. Is that the same as greatness? Yeah. Sure. Maybe.

I was a shortstop most of my playing days. Played left field a lot too. I loved playing defense and worked hard at being the best I could be. When I watch baseball, at any level, I watch how the defense moves, both individually and collectively. It’s habit for me.

My observation of professional baseball defense is simply this: those guys are there because they can hit. Yes, many are great athletes that are skillful at making a few plays, but even many of those I often see flat footed, standing and watching, not backing up bases, misjudging fly balls or making throws that I find ridiculous. I’ve seen better more accurate arms in beer league softball games.

It’s my opinion good defense isn’t stressed at the Major League level. If you can hit, they will find a position for you. Here’s a glove. Go stand out there and when a ball comes your way pick it up and throw it as close as you can to someone who knows wtf they are doing.

Back to WAR. I like it. I’ve seen the algorithms for it and with my background in math (Algebra II in 1965) they make perfect sense to me. (Not really) I think they can do better with dWAR and I hear they are working on it.

Bumsrap
Bumsrap
1 month ago

Sheehan getting closer to a rehab assignment. Los Angeles initially selected Sheehan as the No. 192 overall pick in the sixth round of the 2021 MLB Draft.

Jeff Dominique
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Bumsrap

Emmet Sheehan, who missed all of 2024 after undergoing Tommy John surgery, just took a major step in his rehab. He is now facing live hitters and getting closer to a rehab assignment. If everything stays on track, he could rejoin the big-league rotation around the All-Star break, which would be a massive boost to a staff that’s already leaned heavily on Yoshinobu Yamamoto and Gavin Stone.

Sheehan could be the Dodgers trade deadline back of the rotation starter addition.

Kickstart
Kickstart
1 month ago
Reply to  Jeff Dominique

Galvin Stone??

Duke Not Snider
Duke Not Snider
1 month ago
Reply to  Kickstart

Gavin, of course.
We had two Gavins on the team for a while. Terrible baseball name. Would have traded them for a Mickey and a Willie.

Jeff Dominique
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Kickstart

I am not sure what you are asking but if it is when he is expected to return, it will be 2026.

Bobby
Bobby
1 month ago
Reply to  Jeff Dominique

Of all these young starters we’ve had come up the last 3/4 years (post May and Gonsolin), Ive always thought Sheehan had the best stuff.

Gavin Stone maybe the better pitcher now, but I thought Sheehan stuff was better

Last edited 1 month ago by Bobby
Bumsrap
Bumsrap
1 month ago
Reply to  Bobby

I was hoping Sheehan, Stone. and Pepiot would be a long running in-house core.

Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  Bumsrap

Yeah, it just feels foolish these days to think our past future rotation of Sheehan, Stone, Pepiot, Wrobleski, Ryan, Miller & Knack

Now it’s a couple Japanese dudes, a bunch of injured high-priced veterans, and May/Gonsolin!

Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  Bobby

I liked Sheehan a lot, but I think Ryan’s stuff might have been better.

(& Stone was the best “pitcher” of them all)

Singing the Blue
Singing the Blue
1 month ago
Reply to  Bobby

You may be right about Sheehan’s stuff, but if I could only keep one of those two long term, I’d pick Stone.

On the other hand, if I was looking for a future closer, I’d pick Sheehan.

Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  Bumsrap

Another multi-inning option for the stretch run and postseason.

Singing the Blue
Singing the Blue
1 month ago

All is right with the (baseball) world.
Rich Hill has signed a minor league deal with the Royals.

Duke Not Snider
Duke Not Snider
1 month ago

Dick Mountain rules!

Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  Michael Norris

What about Bonds & Clemens when they die?

Jeff Dominique
Admin
1 month ago
Reply to  Johnny Gentle

Not the same. Neither Bonds nor Clemens are permamnetly ineligible by MLB.

Johnny Gentle
Johnny Gentle
1 month ago
Reply to  Jeff Dominique

Got it

Bluto
Bluto
1 month ago

By Ardaya:

Freddie Freeman’s surgically-repaired right ankle requires 90 minutes of treatment just to get onto the field. He wears heel lifts and wraps the ankle just to play. He doesn’t know when it’ll be 100%.

He’s hitting .376 with a 1.171 OPS. 

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6350993/2025/05/13/dodgers-freddie-freeman-ankle-update/

Singing the Blue
Singing the Blue
1 month ago

Sasaki is experiencing arm soreness. Hasn’t yet been decided if he’ll need an IL visit.

I now yield to an upcoming statement by Badger on the state of Dodger pitching.

Badger
Badger
1 month ago

Hey, I had that one right. Sasaki to the IL.

So, who’s next?

Bumsrap
Bumsrap
1 month ago
Reply to  Badger

Don’t know who’s next down but Sheehan benefits

Yamamoto
Gonsolin
Knack
Kershaw
Sheehan
May

Last edited 1 month ago by Bumsrap
Badger
Badger
1 month ago
Reply to  Bumsrap

“If everything stays on track, he could rejoin the big-league rotation around the All-Star break”

Sheehan. If. He could. I guess Knack stays up and Wrobleski becomes the 6th?

Singing the Blue
Singing the Blue
1 month ago

Kershaw has officially been announced as Saturday’s starter against the Angels.

Jeff Dominique
Admin
1 month ago

My AL ROY prediction is looking pretty good. Jacob Wilson is a stud. The Dodgers did not miss out on him. He was the 6th overall pick in 2023. The A’s are going to be good. Nick Kurtz, Tyler Soderstrom, Shea Langliers, Lawrence Butler, Zack Gelof…

Badger
Badger
1 month ago
Reply to  Jeff Dominique

They sure look good tonight.

If you’re going to send AAAA pitchers out there you’d better be able to score.

Duke Not Snider
Duke Not Snider
1 month ago

Unlike many people–and institutions like the Hall of Fame–I’ve never counted longevity as a key element of “greatness.”
Consider:
Everybody but everybody knows that Koufax is “great”–if not more than great. As a pitcher, he personified greatness–even though he showed it over a stretch from 1961 to ’66. Over his career he won only 165 games but he’s on everybody’s short list for “greatest pitcher ever.” Any list that omits Koufax should be disqualified.

I don’t know what Sandy’s career WAR was, and really don’t care.
What would be interesting to me is how the WAR over his best five consecutive seasons would compare to other greats.
When I think of greatness on the Dodgers, I also think of the glorious but relatively brief runs of Fernando and Hershiser. Unlike them, Don Sutton is a Hall of Famer, mostly because he was very good for a very long time.
But was Sutton ever “greater” than Fernando or Orel?
Not to me.

More in Dodger Baseball

41
0
Would love your thoughts, please comment.x
()
x