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The Best I’ve Ever Seen

                 Many years ago, when I was living in Highland Park, in a home for children, we had what we called a house father there who loved baseball. 

                     His name was Mr. Howell. He was from Connecticut, and he was a huge baseball fan, especially of the Dodgers. His favorite Dodger?  Dolph Camilli and Pee Wee Reese. But what I truly loved to listen too was when he would talk about some of the greats, he had seen play. 

                   He missed Ruth but saw Gehrig a couple of times. He loved watching Joe DiMaggio. Seems his dad liked to go to several Yankee games every year, and he would occasionally take his sons to Ebbets Field to see the Dodgers. 

                    He also had a lot of praise for the Tigers Hank Greenberg. He saw guys like Lefty Gomez, Van Lingle Mungo, Red Ruffing, and Spud Chandler pitch. Until Campy came along, he felt the best catcher he had seen was Bill Dickey. But being a true Dodger fan, he switched once Campanella established himself as one of the greats. 

                    He would go to Vero several times and had photos of many of the players. Seeing a photo of a very young Pee Wee Reese in those baggy uniforms alongside Dolph Camilli was a great thing to see. 

                   But when I asked him who the best he ever saw was, he did not even hesitate. DiMaggio. And the reason was simple. Joe D could do it all. Run, hit, field, hit for average and power. He was most impressed by the fact that he had never seen DiMaggio make a mistake in the field. I had read somewhere that someone had said the same thing about Ruth. 

                     I believe his love of the game got him through one of the toughest times of his life. He and his wife lost their son, Aubrey when he was killed on Okinawa in the last months of WWII. 

                    It got me to thinking about all of the baseball I have seen over the last six decades. Who is the best I ever saw? Well, you see great players every day of the week now on MLB.TV. Plus, you see slo-mo replays of their best plays. 

                  So, I have thought about it, and I will stick to a player or players I have actually been at the ballpark to see. For me, the choice is easy too. Willie Mays. He was as graceful as they come. He could run like the wind, and his cap was consistently flying off of his head when he ran. Remember, this was before batting helmets were mandatory. 

                Willie had a great arm and could make the hardest of catches look easy. There was a certain flair to the way he played the game. Even when he was beating your team, you had to admire the guy’s talent and love of the game. 

                         The first time I heard Vin Scully interview Mays, I was stunned and thought he was interviewing the wrong guy. Willie had such a high-pitched squeaky voice. But his play on the field was always top-notch. It was hard for me to watch him in his last year with the Mets. 

                      I have seen many greats play. Willie Stargell impressed me a lot. First, he was super nice to the fans, even the opposition. I went to a game at Dodger Stadium and before the game he autographed a ball for me despite me wearing my Dodger gear. I just respected the man’s talent. That night off of Alan Foster, he hit a ball over the right field pavilion roof. One of two he would hit in his career. The second one came off of Andy Messersmith. 

                    Hank Aaron never seemed to hit long majestic home runs. Hank would hit these line drives that never seemed to climb very high, but they would go into the seats anyway. He was also an excellent fielder. 

                     I never saw Griffey Jr. play in person, but he was on the highlight reel almost every night. I would put him, Mays and Andruw Jones as maybe the best defensive CF’s I have seen. I did not see Duke or Mickey play as often as I saw those guys. 

                     You can go to every era of the game and find so many great players. For years I thought Brooks Robinson was the best third baseman I had ever seen. But Greg Nettles looked a lot like him in a World Series against the Dodgers. It seemed like they could not get a ball past the guy. 

                    I look at Arenado the same way, and although I really cannot stand the guy, Machado is a top notch third baseman too. LA has had some good players at third, Cey was the longest tenured. But in my lifetime, they have not had a defender there as good as those two. 

                 Ozzie Smith was in my mind, the best defensive SS I have ever seen. There are some excellent ones now, but Ozzie had that little something extra and made plays that made you say, what just happened. Made himself into a decent hitter after he joined the Cardinals. 

                  I saw Roberto Clemente play maybe four times in person. And in every one of those games, he made a great play or throw. I remember watching the Pirates take fielding practice, and he would show off that cannon arm of his. Puig had that type of arm, so did Raul Mondesi.  The Dodgers have been blessed with three RF’s who could throw accurately to any base. Furillo was the other. Mookie is pretty good out there too, but he is an infielder now. 

              The meanest pitchers I have ever seen, Big D, Bob Gibson, Randy Johnson. Anyone of them would probably throw at their mom’s if they were hitting. There might be a couple more, but it is hard to remember them all. I do remember how competitive Juan Marichal was, and I also remember how hated he was by Dodger fans. 

                When you talk about catchers, it seems Bench is at the top of everyone’s list. Johnny Bench was a great catcher. He caught over 1700 games. But he moved to third and first later in his career. My choice would be Ivan Rodriguez and Yadier Molina. Two of the best, maybe not with a power bat, but as defenders, they were A-1. 

                Three injury prone seasons derailed Campy’s career. 3 MVPs, and the all-time highest career caught stealing percentage, 57.4, label him as one of the greatest. The most HRs as a catcher title belongs to Mike Piazza. Mike had 399, 39 more than Carlton Fisk, and 43 more than Bench. 

              But as usual, it comes down to personal preference. Willie will always be to me, the best all-around player I have ever watched on a baseball field. There is probably a player out there somewhere who could be that good, but so far, he hasn’t shown up. 

Born June 14th, 1948, in Los Angeles California. AKA The Bear

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Badger

We’ve talked about this before. The best baseball player I ever saw was Willie Mays. 5 tools, all equal or better than anyone.

Best performance by a Dodger? Easy. Sandy Koufax 1965-1966. 53 wins, 17 losses, 658 innings of sub 2 ERA. Just let that sink in for a minute.

“Friedman and Gomes know Sasaki is as fragile as he is gifted, and their team is now tasked with developing him without breaking him.” This morning’s Times.

Gulp.

He’s like fine China. You don’t let the kids play catch with it in the front yard, you handle it very carefully once in a while then gently put it back on the shelf.

And the Dodgers are asked “to develop without breaking”? Really? How’s their track record on that working out?

“I’ve had numerous injuries in Japan”. Roki Sasaki

I got the under on 111 innings (what he threw last year). And, I’ve got under 150 innings for everyone else on this staff. I think the Dodgers are loading up for September and October and to get their healthy they will employ never before seen load management of the entire staff.

Badger

You know how I feel about Mantle. His injuries, more specifically his leg injury, prevented him from advancing statistically past age 30. His WAR numbers between age 23 and 29 were league leading in all but one year. Mays went on for much longer. Who was actually better in their prime? Subjective.

Also, I saw a lot more of Mays than I did Mantle. I saw Mick play in person only once, and I was 9 years old when I did. It was immediate for me. Wow. That guy was different.

Last edited 22 days ago by Badger
John

I found it interesting when people were posting about Lux maybe liking the night life a bit to much. I’m not saying that Lux had Mantle’s baseball skills but as far as clubhouse culture and Lux’s night life is a reach. Maybe it was because all the Yankees were drunks and that was the culture of the clubhouse.

philjones

John, the players were so different in Mantle’s day it’s not comparable. The party guy persona was admired. Drinking and infidelity was cool. Swing bachelors were role models. Joe Namath, Bo Belinski were idolized for their ability to drink all night and party with beautiful women and be stars on the field. Players smoked and popped greenies. Read Ball Four again.
Wives traveling with the teams changed everything.
Totally different view of that lifestyle now days.
Mays and Mantle were opposites on the party scale from what I’ve heard. You can see how that played out later in life.

John

Phil, I appreciate your insight and I agree with it somewhat until your last two sentences. What players do on their time is their business, they know what’s at stake with today’s salaries.ChiefJustice Oliver Wendell Holmes stated “your liberty ends just where my nose begins.” Did Lux’s night life hamper he’s on the field play? No one can answer that question. My unprofessional opinion was his first half is understandable coming off the injury he had sustained. In the second half he was a product player.It bothers me When we are critical of a players off the field life. But as Americans we can and do critique players off the field behavior and we have that right.

On Mantle and Mays, Mantle’s men all died early in life. Mantle knew that fact and enhanced the timeline. If one wanted to theorize Mantle’s behavior, one could argue and support that Mantle knew he was going to die young and he wanted to live as much of his life in the time he had.

Phil, from prior posts, I assume you have been in a lot of different locker rooms as I have been. For the most part the locker rooms police’s itself where hopefully the veterans are in charge. With the veterans and the type of veterans the Dodgers have, I find it difficult to believe that Lux’s nightlife had much to do with him being traded.

Watford Dodger

658 innings in a season????

That is absolutely ridiculous.

RC Dodger

658 innings in two seasons. The final two years for Koufax. He definitely went out on top.

Watford Dodger

Sorry thank you RCD – I read that wrong – but even so thst is crazy

John

Koufax had to retire at the age of 30.

Jorge Valenzuela

I think it is not possible or it would not be fair to say who was or has been the best player, because baseball has changed a lot, you cannot compare Koufak with Kershaw, because they did not play at the same time or against the same teams or in the same stadiums or with the same managers or the same teammates and well, I think you already understood my point.

Would Babe Ruth have been the great hitter he was in his time if he were playing today?

My idea is that maybe one “could” compare players every 10 years, who was the best batter from 1971 to 1980? from 1981 to 1990? from 2001 to 2010? and so on, the same with pitchers.

Would Fernando have had the same numbers he achieved in 81, if he were to play today? Definitely not!

And an apology, I think that was not the topic of this day, but I just wanted to comment on it.

Something similar is when I keep reading that the Dodgers should have won in 2017 if it weren’t for the cheating Houston Astros.

That World Series could have been played against the Yankees, had it not been for Altuve’s homerun.

dodgerram

And we lost two games at home where they did not cheat.

Win one of those two and we win the series.
Still the Astros should have been stripped of the title and awarded to us.
That is still how I feel

Go Dodgers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dan in Pasadena

I am still incensed that Manfred didn’t vacate the 2017 World Series and the ALCS. I’d guess Yankees fans are too. No title, no financial shares, no banners allowed to be hoisted. And in this fan’s dreams, ban the players & personnel involved even though they admitted it because they were told they would not be punished. Then hold a press conference telling them, “Now you know how it feels to be cheated”.

Yes, they’d sue and eventually win – MLB can afford to pay the settlement – but it would offset the impact it did to player’s reputations. Most evident to Kershaw’s.

Make Mine Blue

Agree, you have to consider the era a player played in. Would Dick Butkus even been drafted in this era? No, he was slow and plodding, a mean SOB but damn he would have never have stood a chance in todays NFL. GOAT (Greatest of All Time) or GOTE (Greatest of That Era) is the question. I’ll take GOTE as a possible measuring stick.

On that note, I say are the Dodgers the GOAT organization or actually the GOTE? Are the Dodgers regular season record over the last 10 years but only two WS rings enough to call them GOTE? As of right now , NO but give them a few more years to accumulate a few more rings and say YES to GOTE.

Keith

I didn’t get to see Mantle play, but I’ve often heard Trout compared to Mantle, for you guys that did see Mantle play, how do you think they compare in their early years before injuries side tracked both of their careers.

Badger

Trout at 6’2” 235 pounds is considerably larger than Mantle, 5’11, 195 pounds. That’s true among most Major League players from previous eras. I would say Mantle was faster, being timed in 3.1 to first base. Triples and stolen bases are there for both of them. As for who was better in center, I don’t know, probably Trout.

OhioDodger

Best players I got to see in person were Bench, Rose, and Morgan. Also got to see Seaver and Maddux.

Jeff Dominique

My son was very good friends with Pete Rose Jr. when they were both with the Phillies organization. On one of my trips to Reading, I got to meet Pete Rose. He was certainly very warm and kind to me. The Big Red Machine was chock full of great players. The three you mentioned, plus Tony Perez, George Foster, Ken Griffey Sr., and Dave Concepcion. You got to see a lot of the best of the best when watching those Reds teams.

Bobby

I knew a Mr Howell once. Rich fella.

Badger

Thurston? He and his wife sure had a lot of clothes for a three hour tour. Nice people though.

OhioDodger

 😀  LOL

Jeff Dominique

This is a topic that I wanted to bring up a number of times. Who have been your favorite non-Dodgers.  That mostly entails elite players. Non Giant fans are not going to name Hal Lanier as a best or favorite. 

I go back to the early 60’s for my favorite non-Dodgers who were elite. I had/have memorabilia for both Brooks Robinson and Roberto Clemente. I have always loved defense. Of course there have been great defensive 3B, but Brooks had 16 GG, more than any other position player in MLB history. I saw Brooks live twice in 1966 World Series. His play in the 1966 and 1970 WS were some of the best WS defense I ever saw. Graig Nettles was also great against the Dodgers in 1978.

I saw Clemente live a lot. His throws from the RF corner are incomparable.  I know there have been a lot of great RF, but Clemente is the best I ever saw. And yes I include Henry Aaron in that group.

I think the discussions on Mays v Mantle will go on forever. I saw Mays live a lot, but Mantle only twice in the 1963 World Series. I did not get to see the best of Mantle. In June of 1963, Mantle fractured a bone in his left foot and suffered ligament and cartilage damage to the left knee running into the chain link fence chasing down a Brooks Robinson drive. Mays OTOH was the best overall MLB player I ever saw in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s.

But the CF I saw the most, and is my favorite CF is Ken Griffey Jr. He was a string bean that was hurt all the time, and yet still clubbed 630 career HRs. Better HR percentage than Mays. I did not get to see Mays or Mantle in their best years. But I did see Junior in his best years. We have family in Seattle, who were not baseball fans. But they always got me tickets for Seattle games so I could see Junior. I always made sure I made it to Dodger Stadium for games against Cincinnati when he was with the Reds.

I saw Randy Johnson play multiple times at USC. I also saw him a lot in Arizona. My company had season tickets at Bank One Ball Park when they first opened. I made sure I made my trips to Phoenix when the Dodgers played, and multiple times throughout the year. My boss laughed and asked why I was taking so many trips to Phoenix in 1999, Johnson’s first year with Arizona, and as it turned out, my last baseball season with that company.

My favorite non-LAD pitcher of all time was/is Nolan Ryan. I saw him pitch live on a couple of games. I have multiple pictures on my wall of Ryan. I have a picture of his fight with Robin Ventura and with him on the mound with blood on his jersey. 

The best overall player I saw play was Barry Bonds. When I moved up to the Bay area in 2000, my boss had season tickets to the Giants games. Even though he was a huge LAD fan, he gave me his tickets for all of the Dodgers games. I was at Pac Bell on the October 5-7 series with LAD. Bonds hit his 72nd HR off Chan Ho Park on October 5, and he hit his 73rd HR off Dennis Springer in the 1st inning of the October 7 game. I wore my LAD jerseys proudly those games, but I was excited to see MLB history.

The best athlete I ever saw was Bo Jackson

One of my other favorite non-LAD pitchers of all time was Lefty, Steve Carlton, when he was with the Phillies. Beginning in 1972, I made sure I was at Dodger Stadium every game he pitched. 

Jim Palmer, Ozzie Smith, Chipper Jones, Jim Rice, all HOF. And two other Boston OF, Dewey Evans and Fred Lynn. I saw Lynn at lot at USC, and I saw Evans as a high schooler with Chatsworth HS. I saw Bo Jackson hit a monster HR in KC in 1988. I loved watching Curt Schilling pitch. And finally, one of my Monroe school mates, Doug DeCinces taking over for my favorite Brooks Robinson in 1977.

Duke Not Snider

That’s a great list of all-timers.
Notice how we rather not mention May’s godson?

philjones

Bad news dodgerram, it looks like Luis Robert Jr is headed to the Reds.

Dionysus
Duke Not Snider

Robert could be great for the Reds. I approve. If he succeeds, I’ll have “toldja so” status.
Bregman? That sounds like pure BS.
But I could imagine the brass deciding that Arenado would be worth it if they could unload Taylor’s full contract in the deal. Taylor + ??? for Arenado?
Dodgers could use Arenado on the short side of a platoon with Max and as a defensive replacement. He’d also be insurance in case Freddie gets hurt, as Max could shift to 1B and Arenado could cover 3B.
But I’d still prefer a bolder deal for somebody younger. Apparently that someone won’t be Luis Robert.
So the mind drifts to Jordan Westburg.
Who else is out there worth targeting?

Bluto

What Michael asked.

Jeff Dominique

I have not read any credible journalist who said Luis Robert Jr. is going to the Reds. Jim Bowden is doubling down on his trade proposal to bring Robert Jr. to Cin., but nothing is remotely being discussed as imminent. Not that I can find.

Keith

He could be a monster in that ball park, I hope he stays healthy it would be fun to see what he ca do there.

Duke Not Snider

Imagine that top prospects Rushing, Freeland and Hope have absolutely spectacular springs, each with an OPS over 1.500 and sparkling defense.
Could any of them crack the Dodgers opening-day roster?
I don’t think so. At least not without an injury or two.
Sasaki may be the only “rookie” who starts with the big club.
This is one of the problems with building a veteran powerhouse.

Badger

As I have watched Spring Training over the years I find it impossible to trust any numbers from rookies. Major League pitchers don’t give a rat’s ass about their Spring numbers as they are training to peak months from Spring. And on this roster? Forget it. None of those guys are going to break with the team. Freeland, Hope and Rushing could hit .600 in March and it won’t get them a spot on the Opening Day roster. The only “rookie” with that chance is Sasaki and he isn’t really a rookie now is he.

What we are looking at, and guessing at, in March is who might get a call up in late summer and who might be used in trade for an added piece sometime in the coming weeks.

Me? In still looking at short and center field. And, I would not be surprised to see Flaherty added. I don’t care what anybody says about payroll or arguments against you can’t have too much pitching. The Dodgers are going to spend and defer and stack the roster. They said they were going to to do it and they are doing it.

Jeff Dominique

James Outman

Fred Vogel

Mays and Koufax. Both dominant.

Keith

Thanks guys, I did see Mays play but I was young I remember him with SF but I don’t remember much other than I knew I was watching Willie Mays. I remember the big red machine a little more because it seemed like the Dodgers were always battling them for the division.

Wally Moonshot

Back in those days I hated the Big Red Machine because they usually beat the Dodgers — until 77. I was never a fan of Sparky Anderson— I always thought there was something weird about him. However in retrospect, what a team! Everyone on the starting lineup was a great hitter except for Geronimo in center and he was a Gold Glover. It would be interesting to pit that team vs the current Dodger team in a 7 game series and see who comes out on top.

Bluto

I wonder if this is to counter counterfeiting,

heh.

Last edited 21 days ago by Bluto
john

I grew up and live in the midwest. As a young boy we would take the train to Kansas City and watch the Kansas City A’s. I got to see the Yankees and the Red Sox’s. We saw Mantle hit a home run that almost got out of the stadium, at least that is how I remember it. We saw Yaz with Red Sox’s etc. Now I’ve been to most stadiums and seen a lot of great players but the best one might be George Brett with the Royals. He was a man among boys. Ive been able to see Bobby Witt a number of times he might end of as good as Brett.

TennisMenace

Best players I got to watch live were:

hitters:
Hank Aaron
chipper Jones
Dale Murphy

pitchers:
Greg Maddox
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz

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